WEBVTT

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Airline subcommittee hearing on Air

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Force modernization will come to order .

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Thank you all for being here ,

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gentlemen , thank you , witnesses for ,

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uh , for being with us and for your

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service as always . I want to start by

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saying how much I appreciate the work

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you've all done and the work that went

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into this budget , um . You know ,

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putting together an Air Force budget in

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any circumstances is difficult ,

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obviously , and , and it's particularly

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challenging in these days , even when

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we have a pretty good top line number ,

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but you're balancing today's threats

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and tomorrow's challenges and you're

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doing it with while the world seems to

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be getting more dangerous by the day

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and hour and week . Um , from my

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perspective perspective anyway , this

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is , I think a thoughtful budget that

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clearly puts an emphasis on

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modernization . I think that's clearly

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the right direction . We can't deter

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China . Support our allies and maintain

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air superiority with aging equipment

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and good intentions . The investments

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in next generation capabilities ,

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advanced munitions , command and

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control , and collaborative combat

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aircraft show the Air Force understands

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where the fight is headed . That of

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course doesn't mean Congress shouldn't

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ask some tough questions . I expect we

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will because that's our job . One thing

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I want to hear more about today is your

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thinking on multi-year procurement

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authority for the F-35 and the F-15 EX .

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To me , if we know these aircraft are

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going to be part of the force for years ,

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we ought to look seriously at buying

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them smarter , more efficiently .

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Industry needs to know they need to

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have some predictability . The supplier

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needs predictability . Taxpayers

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deserve to know we're getting the best

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value that we can . I'm interested in

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hearing whether you think the

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conditions are right for multi-year

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procurement and what's standing in the

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way if they're not . I'm also concerned

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about the projected cost growth we're

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seeing in the KC-46 program starting

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around fiscal year 2028 and beyond .

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The tanker fleet may not always get the

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headlines , but nothing works without

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it , right ? And deterrence doesn't

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happen without tankers . When costs are

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climbing in the out years , we need to

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understand why , what the plan is to

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control it , and whether that's going

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to impact the number of aircraft the

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Air Force can ultimately afford . I

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also want to address the E7 wedge tail

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program that we're reading about a lot

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these days . We need this capability .

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I'm concerned that the risk of retiring

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AWAC aircraft faster than replacements

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are coming online . In a future fight ,

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especially in the Indo-Pacific ,

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airborne battle management will be

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absolutely critical . I understand the

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Air Force added the E-7s back into the

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budget late in the process , but there

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still appears to be some . Question

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about the funding profile going forward .

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I hope we can get some clarity today on

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whether the program is adequately

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resourced and how the Air Force plans

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to avoid a capability gap as the

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current fleet ages out . Uh , also ,

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I'm going , I'm interested in hearing

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some conversation about ISR

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modernizations . Uh , intelligence

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surveillance and reconnaissance is not

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flashy , but it still is an Air Force

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Corp function . Um , we've had some

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discussions and , and , uh , I've

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appreciated all of your candor with me ,

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uh , relating to the MQ-9 as we see in

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the current fight , um , it's

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importance and the , and the , and its

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vulnerabilities , and I'll be

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interested in hearing what's , uh ,

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what we can do to . To uh fill that gap

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as well , um , they're heavily relied

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upon as you know , and , and I know

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nobody needs to give you a lecture on

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that , but I will be interested in in

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the plans . I also want to understand

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whether the Air Force's munitions

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production profile actually matches the

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timelines for achieving initial

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operating capability with collaborative

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combat aircraft . Fielding large

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numbers of CCA only matters if we can

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produce the weapons sustainment and

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supporting inventory needed to make

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them operationally relevant from day

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number one . I'd like to hear whether

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the department believes the current

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industrial base and procurement plans

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are aligned with those IOC goals or

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whether we are at risk of creating

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another capacity gap . At the end of

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the day , the Air Force is being asked

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to do a lot with a lot of pressure

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coming from every direction . This

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subcommittee understands that . I

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appreciate all of you being here . I

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look forward to the discussion and with

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that I turn it over to Senator Kelly .

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Thank you , Mr . Chairman and thank you ,

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uh , gentlemen for being here . I wanna

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join , um , you , Mr . Chairman , and ,

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uh , welcoming our witnesses . Um ,

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look forward to hearing their testimony .

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I'm especially interested in a few

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things . Uh , first of all , how the

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Air Force plans to manage its multiple

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modernization programs to deliver the

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capabilities that . Our Air Force

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warfighters need in a timely manner to

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defeat our most capable adversaries

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while also protecting . Uh , and

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conserving to the best we can taxpayer

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dollars , um , but also being able to

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support combatant commander

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requirements . Uh , what I'd like to

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talk about here today is the F-35

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program B-21 , KC-46 tanker , E7 wedge

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tail , uh , that will replace the

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AWAC , one area where .

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I have a question on is

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the plan to truncate the HH 60

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whiskey program after fiscal year 2023 ,

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which would leave the Air Force roughly

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25% short of its original plan to

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modernize the CSAR fleet of aircraft .

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I want to hear how reducing the

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inventory objective for these forces

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are going to affect the Air Force's

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ability to do combat , search and

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rescue in future conflicts . We

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recently saw the value of that in Iran .

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We also need to understand why it makes

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sense to divert 26 of these

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HH60 whiskeys from CSAR to

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another task . Overall , these

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investments must yield the capabilities

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we're going to need to compete in

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future conflicts . Uh , we've got

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issues with , you know , hypersonic

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missiles , long range air to air

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missiles , just new systems that

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provide a range of different challenges .

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And new systems for us coming online

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like the F-47 B-21 . Um ,

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But we also can't ignore our need to

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recap , uh , other capabilities

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that give our force a competitive edge ,

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like our tanker fleet . Uh , I also

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want to You know , take into account ,

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um , and we need to continuously think

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about some lower visibility programs

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like making sure we have , uh ,

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adequate training ranges for our 5th

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generation and future , uh , fighters

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and next-gen systems , um . I

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understand and I get it . Our witnesses

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here today , uh , face huge challenges

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as they strive to balance supporting

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ongoing operations and sustaining

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readiness with the need to modernize

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and keep a technological edge over our

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adversaries that are going to be

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critical to winning future fights . Uh ,

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there's also no ignoring the fact that

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strategic competition . With our

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increasingly capable adversaries is a

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primary concern for our national

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security . A number of other issues I

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think we need to discuss , but in the

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interest of time here , we'll go to the

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back to the Mr . Chairman for the

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questions . Thank you very much . Um ,

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General Tabor , do you have an opening

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statement you wanna make ? Uh yes ,

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Chairman Kramer , thank you very much

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and thank you , Ranking Member Kelly .

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And uh Senator Budd , uh , for the

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opportunity to testify on the

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Department of the Air Force's

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modernization efforts in review of the

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defense authorization request for FY 27 .

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It's an honor to jointly testify here

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alongside , uh , Lieutenant General

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Cropsey and Major General Niemai today .

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Since its inception , the Air Force has

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provided the joint force with credible

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combat power to deter aggression ,

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defend our national interest , and

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defeat our enemies . Our adversaries

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respect American airpower , and they

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invest heavily in capabilities designed

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to erode our advantages . To maintain

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our competitive edge , we must continue

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to invest in the air force our nation

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deserves . The United States Air Force

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brings unique , unique capabilities to

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the fight . These distinct airpower

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advantages ensure the joint force

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retains freedom of action , extends its

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operational reach , and projects

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decisive power worldwide . The fiscal

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year 2027 president's budget marks a

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pivotal moment in our commitment not

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only to modernizing and reshaping our

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Air Force to meet the challenges

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presented by a rapidly evolving global

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security landscape landscape , but also

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to the readiness that underpins our

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capabilities . In line with the

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national security and national defense

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strategies , our primary goal is to

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restore the force to a state of full

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readiness , ensuring our airmen are

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trained and equipped to fly , fix , and

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fight . To that end , we are making a

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significant 38% increase over the

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fiscal year 2026 enacted budget with a

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focus on our foundational accounts .

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This budget decisively advances our

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bomber force by aggressively pursuing

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the B-21 radar , modernizing the B-52s ,

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and extending our B-1 and B-2 fleets ,

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ensuring we mitigate any near-term

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capability gaps and enable a seamless

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transition to the next generation B-21

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fleet . In the budget , we also

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increased fighter fleet procurement ,

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requesting 24 F-15 EX and 38 F-35s in

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27 while we continue to develop the

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F-47 and collaborative combat aircraft

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to ensure a credible deterrent . This

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budget sends a clear demand signal to

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industry to increase production of key

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munitions , including a significant

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investment in hypersonic weapons like

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Hackam and Arrow . At the heart of the

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Joint Forces power projections

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capabilities lie our airlift and tanker

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fleets . This budget strengthens our

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aero refueling capabilities by

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continuing the KC-46A Pegasus program

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and advancing in advanced tanker

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systems or ATS . We're also

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recapitalizing our executive airlift

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fleet beginning this fiscal year and

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modernizing the presidential airlift

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fleet with the VC-25B . For strategic

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airlift , we are accelerating the next

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generation airlift program to begin

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planning for the eventual replacement

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of both the C5 and C-17 fleets . And

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for tactical airlift , we continue to

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maintain and modernize our C-130

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aircraft . Regarding our rotary wing

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fleets essential for rescue and for

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security , we continue the transition

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to the modern H860W , the MH 139 , and

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maintain our investments in CV22 . Our

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investment in intelligence ,

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surveillance and reconnaissance is

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central to generating decision

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advantage with a focus on integrating

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platforms into a broader sensing

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architecture . Finally , acknowledging

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the importance of electromagnetic

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spectrum operations or MMSO , this

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budget enhances our electronic warfare

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capabilities by investing in those

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capabilities that complement our

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procurement of additional EA 37B

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aircraft . This fleet will total 22 by

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fiscal year 31 to ensure freedom of

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maneuver in contested environments . In

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closing , I assure you that this Air

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Force relentlessly assesses every

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program , holding ourselves to high

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standards of stewardship and

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transparency to the taxpayers . We are

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realizing efficiencies by divesting

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older , less capable platforms so we

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can forge the modernized combat

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credible force of the future . The

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joint force and nation have been clear .

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The United States Air Force is

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essential to deter and if necessary ,

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defeat our most consequential

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adversaries . Through our efforts this

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past year , I can confidently say that

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the world's preeminent air power is

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postured to effectively meet the rising

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call to defend the homeland , deter or

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defeat our adversaries , and set

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conditions to achieve national

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objectives . Thank you for the

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opportunity to speak to you today , and

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I look forward to your questions .

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Thank you , General Tabor . General

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Cropsey , you recognize . Chairman

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Kramer Ranking Member

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Kelly and Senator Budd . Thank you for

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having us today to provide testimony on

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the Department of the Air Force's

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modernization efforts . This budget

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request continues our modernization

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efforts , such as the development of

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the next generation of air dominance in

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the F-47 and the collaborative combat

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aircraft . KC-46 and the continuation

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of uninterrupted tanker

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recapitalization , our T-7 training

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aircraft and munitions . It also allows

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us to continue fielding platforms like

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the F-15 EX , F-15 EPAWS , F-22

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upgrades , the F-35 Block 4 , as well

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as sustaining our current fleet . I

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want to highlight the KC-46 program for

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a moment . From Operation Absolute

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Resolve to Operation Epic Fury , the

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KC-46 has been in the fight over the

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last several months and has proven to

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be a critical enabler of joint

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operations therein . Though it is

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performing admirably , the fleet still

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faces readiness challenges requiring

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daily heroics from the crews on the

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ground . To address those challenges ,

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the Department of War and the Air Force

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have deliberately prioritized readiness

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initiatives within the FY 27

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president's budget . Those efforts

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initiate reliability improvements ,

14:11.349 --> 14:13.071
additional sparing , and other

14:13.071 --> 14:15.293
supportability projects . In parallel ,

14:15.293 --> 14:17.460
the Air Force and Boeing have embarked

14:17.460 --> 14:19.359
on a KC-46 readiness improvement

14:19.359 --> 14:21.679
initiative , which repurposes five

14:21.679 --> 14:23.623
early build aircraft for near-term

14:23.623 --> 14:25.679
readiness improvements , streamlines

14:25.679 --> 14:27.735
and accelerates retrofits for two of

14:27.735 --> 14:29.735
the remaining Category 1 efficiency

14:29.735 --> 14:31.846
programs , and puts focused effort on

14:31.846 --> 14:33.512
the fleet's primary readiness

14:33.512 --> 14:35.623
detractors . The combination of these

14:35.623 --> 14:37.679
initiatives is expected to provide a

14:37.679 --> 14:39.457
near-term availability boost of

14:39.457 --> 14:41.510
approximately 6% . And provide a

14:41.510 --> 14:43.630
long-term aircraft availability

14:43.630 --> 14:47.549
increase of over 20% by 2030 . The Air

14:47.549 --> 14:49.327
Force is also moving rapidly to

14:49.327 --> 14:51.160
implement the Secretary of War's

14:51.160 --> 14:53.438
acquisition transformation imperatives .

14:53.438 --> 14:55.605
We appreciate the authorities provided

14:55.605 --> 14:57.840
by Congress and the FY 26 NDAA and

14:57.840 --> 14:59.840
continued partnership as we work to

14:59.840 --> 15:01.784
transform acquisitions into a true

15:01.784 --> 15:04.250
warfighting function . Our focus is on

15:04.250 --> 15:06.210
mission outcomes with the guiding

15:06.210 --> 15:08.377
principles of ensuring every portfolio

15:08.377 --> 15:11.450
acquisition executive or PAE has the

15:11.450 --> 15:13.339
three things they need to succeed

15:13.339 --> 15:16.000
authority , talent , and resources .

15:16.609 --> 15:18.442
The Air Force has taken a phased

15:18.442 --> 15:20.276
approach on PAEs with an initial

15:20.276 --> 15:22.442
rollout of 5 portfolios that represent

15:22.442 --> 15:24.498
a cross section of our most critical

15:24.498 --> 15:26.498
mission areas to pioneer and mature

15:26.498 --> 15:28.498
this new framework . We are already

15:28.498 --> 15:30.720
seeing successes . For example , on the

15:30.720 --> 15:32.720
authorities' front , we've examined

15:32.720 --> 15:34.776
over 200 contracting authorities for

15:34.776 --> 15:37.830
areas to delegate . As a result , over

15:37.830 --> 15:40.070
80% of unrestricted contracting

15:40.070 --> 15:42.237
authorities have been delegated to the

15:42.237 --> 15:44.349
PAE level , and 100% of business and

15:44.349 --> 15:46.405
clearance Authority now sit with the

15:46.405 --> 15:49.109
PAE . The strategic impact of this

15:49.109 --> 15:51.109
decentralized approach was recently

15:51.109 --> 15:53.349
demonstrated when the F-16 program

15:53.349 --> 15:56.030
office safeguarded vital flight test

15:56.030 --> 15:58.086
operations at Eglin Air Force Base .

15:58.099 --> 16:00.099
Facing a potential disruption , the

16:00.099 --> 16:02.099
team utilized their newly delegated

16:02.099 --> 16:03.988
authorities to process a required

16:03.988 --> 16:05.821
government flight representative

16:05.821 --> 16:07.655
redelegation in under 24 hours .

16:07.655 --> 16:09.488
Historically , this multi-tiered

16:09.488 --> 16:11.599
coordination consumed up to 30 days .

16:11.599 --> 16:13.766
By collapsing this timeline , the F-16

16:13.766 --> 16:15.488
team bypassed severe scheduled

16:15.488 --> 16:17.599
degradation and ensured uninterrupted

16:17.599 --> 16:21.239
capability maturation . Talent . Now

16:21.239 --> 16:23.072
more than ever , the acquisition

16:23.072 --> 16:24.683
enterprise requires a highly

16:24.683 --> 16:26.628
specialized and agile workforce to

16:26.628 --> 16:28.739
ensure PEEs have the talent they need

16:28.739 --> 16:30.517
to translate significant budget

16:30.517 --> 16:32.683
investments into capabilities . Due to

16:32.683 --> 16:35.000
recent DOW policy changes on manpower

16:35.000 --> 16:36.611
and the use of direct hiring

16:36.611 --> 16:38.799
authorities , PAE weapons was able to

16:38.799 --> 16:40.966
bypass traditional protracted civilian

16:40.966 --> 16:42.910
hiring constraints to successfully

16:42.910 --> 16:45.270
onboard 69 critical acquisition

16:45.270 --> 16:47.710
professionals . Furthermore , these

16:47.710 --> 16:49.710
authorities have enabled PA Weapons

16:49.710 --> 16:51.760
team to maintain a robust and agile

16:51.760 --> 16:54.270
talent pipeline . For example , they

16:54.270 --> 16:56.048
are currently processing active

16:56.048 --> 16:58.070
personnel actions , executing rapid

16:58.070 --> 17:00.390
manpower realignments , and utilizing

17:00.390 --> 17:02.223
targeted incentive packages that

17:02.223 --> 17:04.446
speed's not seen before . And finally ,

17:04.609 --> 17:06.849
resources . We're examining ways to

17:06.849 --> 17:08.960
empower PAEs with the ability to make

17:08.960 --> 17:11.071
active trade-offs between acquisition

17:11.071 --> 17:13.182
and operational risk . Reforms to the

17:13.182 --> 17:15.016
resourcing process , including a

17:15.016 --> 17:17.182
realignment of and reduction in budget

17:17.182 --> 17:19.182
line items , are critical to enable

17:19.182 --> 17:21.349
those trade-offs . We will continue to

17:21.349 --> 17:23.571
work with Congress to ensure resourcing

17:23.571 --> 17:25.516
flexibilities are aligned with the

17:25.516 --> 17:27.793
appropriate transparency and oversight .

17:27.793 --> 17:29.960
Thank you again for the opportunity to

17:29.960 --> 17:32.016
testify . We look forward to working

17:32.016 --> 17:33.960
with Congress , industry , and our

17:33.960 --> 17:36.071
communities that support us to ensure

17:36.071 --> 17:35.838
that we maintain the necessary military

17:35.838 --> 17:38.448
advantage to secure our national vital

17:38.448 --> 17:40.504
interests and support our allies and

17:40.504 --> 17:42.726
partners . Thank you for your steadfast

17:42.726 --> 17:44.892
support and partnership to deliver the

17:44.892 --> 17:47.115
needed capabilities for the Air Force .

17:47.115 --> 17:49.226
Thank you , General Cropsey , General

17:49.226 --> 17:51.170
Nemai , you're recognized for your

17:51.170 --> 17:53.281
opening statement . Chairman Kramer ,

17:53.281 --> 17:55.392
Ranking Member Kelly , Senator Budd ,

17:55.392 --> 17:57.615
thank you for the opportunity to appear

17:57.615 --> 17:59.726
before you today to discuss Air Force

17:59.726 --> 18:01.892
modernization . Your continued support

18:01.892 --> 18:03.837
is essential , ensuring our airmen

18:03.837 --> 18:05.615
remain equipped to deter and if

18:05.615 --> 18:07.392
necessary , defeat our nation's

18:07.392 --> 18:09.459
adversaries . Today , our historical

18:09.459 --> 18:11.229
advantages are being actively

18:11.229 --> 18:13.173
challenged by peer competitors and

18:13.173 --> 18:15.189
rapid technological disruption on a

18:15.189 --> 18:17.819
scale we've not faced in decades . Our

18:17.819 --> 18:19.763
competitors are adapting quickly ,

18:19.819 --> 18:22.041
fielding forces designed to disrupt how

18:22.041 --> 18:24.097
we have historically projected power

18:24.097 --> 18:26.500
and generated combat effects . To keep

18:26.500 --> 18:28.556
pace , the Air Force must change not

18:28.556 --> 18:31.020
only what we field , but how we decide

18:31.020 --> 18:33.459
what to field . We cannot compete by

18:33.459 --> 18:35.060
simply scaling capacity for

18:35.060 --> 18:37.171
capabilities that have served us well

18:37.171 --> 18:39.282
in the past . We must generate combat

18:39.282 --> 18:41.339
power differently through integrated

18:41.339 --> 18:43.672
systems that combine long range effects ,

18:43.739 --> 18:45.780
novel capabilities , and affordable

18:45.780 --> 18:47.947
mass to successfully operate in highly

18:47.947 --> 18:50.989
contested environments . To do that ,

18:51.219 --> 18:53.052
the Air Force has taken steps to

18:53.052 --> 18:54.552
strengthen how we approach

18:54.552 --> 18:56.660
modernization . By reorganizing the

18:56.660 --> 18:58.739
headquarters Air Force A57 and

18:58.739 --> 19:00.795
incorporating the work of Integrated

19:00.795 --> 19:02.517
Capabilities Command , we have

19:02.517 --> 19:04.683
consolidated our efforts into a single

19:04.683 --> 19:06.239
office that coordinates and

19:06.239 --> 19:08.350
synchronizes modernization across the

19:08.350 --> 19:10.461
Air Force . The Deputy Chief of Staff

19:10.461 --> 19:12.072
responsible for leading this

19:12.072 --> 19:14.295
organization will also serve as the Air

19:14.295 --> 19:16.295
Force's Chief modernization Officer

19:16.295 --> 19:18.183
responsible for integrating force

19:18.183 --> 19:20.128
design requirements and investment

19:20.128 --> 19:22.350
priorities across the enterprise . This

19:22.350 --> 19:24.295
effort is focused on one outcome ,

19:24.295 --> 19:26.517
identifying tomorrow's highest priority

19:26.517 --> 19:28.683
gaps and ensuring they are resourced .

19:28.683 --> 19:30.683
Central to this approach is a shift

19:30.683 --> 19:32.572
away from evaluating platforms in

19:32.572 --> 19:34.628
isolation . Instead , we will assess

19:34.628 --> 19:36.572
how the Air Force generates combat

19:36.572 --> 19:38.350
power as an integrated system ,

19:38.350 --> 19:40.461
assessing and prioritizing individual

19:40.461 --> 19:42.683
capabilities according to their role in

19:42.683 --> 19:44.739
the larger system . Since 2024 , the

19:44.739 --> 19:46.461
provisional work of Integrated

19:46.461 --> 19:46.380
Capabilities Command helped lay the

19:46.380 --> 19:48.380
groundwork for how we prioritize

19:48.380 --> 19:50.739
modernization investments , an approach

19:50.739 --> 19:52.961
that directly shaped the FY 27 budget .

19:53.699 --> 19:55.099
Moving forward , we have

19:55.099 --> 19:57.266
institutionalized this function within

19:57.266 --> 20:00.359
857 for FY 28 and beyond . I believe

20:00.359 --> 20:02.137
you will see the impact of this

20:02.137 --> 20:04.137
approach in future budgets that are

20:04.137 --> 20:06.470
more consistently aligned with strategy ,

20:06.470 --> 20:08.692
requirements , and resourcing . Whether

20:08.692 --> 20:11.026
the budget grows or not in future years ,

20:11.026 --> 20:12.970
this framework will enable the Air

20:12.970 --> 20:14.692
Force to more consistently and

20:14.692 --> 20:16.859
holistically explain its modernization

20:16.859 --> 20:18.859
approach to Congress . It will also

20:18.859 --> 20:21.081
allow us to more effectively manage our

20:21.081 --> 20:23.248
finite resources as we balance today's

20:23.248 --> 20:24.859
readiness with modernization

20:24.859 --> 20:27.026
investments that underwrite tomorrow's

20:27.026 --> 20:29.026
readiness . Thank you again for the

20:29.026 --> 20:30.915
opportunity to testify and I look

20:30.915 --> 20:33.137
forward to your questions . Thank you ,

20:33.137 --> 20:35.137
General Nwa . Well said , all , all

20:35.137 --> 20:37.192
three of you . Um , so I , I'm gonna

20:37.192 --> 20:39.303
open up the questioning by going to ,

20:39.303 --> 20:41.415
uh , something I , I brought up in my

20:41.415 --> 20:43.581
opening statement , and that is , um ,

20:43.581 --> 20:45.581
ISR . Now , General Tabor , you did

20:45.581 --> 20:47.748
reference it as , as part of a broader

20:47.748 --> 20:49.692
sense of operations , I think , or

20:49.692 --> 20:52.449
something to that effect , um . But I

20:52.449 --> 20:54.780
wanna talk about some with the MQ9

20:54.780 --> 20:57.060
specifically , uh , it's , you know ,

20:57.300 --> 20:59.467
I'm reading a lot , all about it every

20:59.467 --> 21:01.578
day pretty regularly along with Bacon

21:01.578 --> 21:04.140
E7 , um , and , and other legacy

21:04.140 --> 21:07.250
systems . It seems to me the MQ 9 ,

21:08.469 --> 21:10.869
I think that as of two years ago the

21:10.869 --> 21:13.109
requirement was , you know , 189 had to

21:13.109 --> 21:16.949
be the number , um , the floor . We see

21:16.949 --> 21:19.750
a fairly major attrition rate , uh , in

21:19.750 --> 21:22.150
this current conflict , uh , it , and

21:22.150 --> 21:24.390
yet it's very necessary not only in

21:24.390 --> 21:26.612
this conflict but , you know , in other

21:26.612 --> 21:29.119
places as we know . Um , can , can you

21:29.119 --> 21:31.230
in this , in this environment give me

21:31.230 --> 21:33.230
at least as , as much as you can in

21:33.230 --> 21:35.563
terms of what the plan is going forward ?

21:35.563 --> 21:37.452
We've heard different things from

21:37.452 --> 21:39.452
different people . I think that you

21:39.452 --> 21:41.563
guys are three of the most thoughtful

21:41.563 --> 21:41.319
people I've ever heard talk on this

21:41.319 --> 21:43.541
topic , um , so you can give me a , a ,

21:43.541 --> 21:45.708
a sense of the plan going forward that

21:45.708 --> 21:47.839
gives both me comfort and , and the ,

21:47.939 --> 21:49.995
and the country comfort and the more

21:49.995 --> 21:52.161
importantly , the combatant commanders

21:52.161 --> 21:54.272
some comfort . Maybe start with you ,

21:54.272 --> 21:56.439
General Tabor . And I thank you really

21:56.439 --> 21:58.661
for all of your efforts in this in this

21:58.661 --> 22:00.995
regard for me . Thanks , Senator Kramer .

22:00.995 --> 22:03.680
Uh , you know , uh , Luke and Moto and

22:03.680 --> 22:06.239
I , uh , meet together , uh , once a

22:06.239 --> 22:08.350
week , every , uh , Tuesday morning ,

22:08.350 --> 22:10.406
and , uh , this morning we sat in my

22:10.406 --> 22:12.406
office and we talked about MQ9 , so

22:12.406 --> 22:14.517
this is fresh on our minds , but I'll

22:14.517 --> 22:16.295
start and then . Uh , with your

22:16.295 --> 22:18.517
indulgence , can , uh , pass it over to

22:18.517 --> 22:18.140
the other two . So we are , uh ,

22:18.250 --> 22:20.306
monitoring , uh , MQ9s , uh , very ,

22:20.339 --> 22:22.739
very closely in light of what has

22:22.739 --> 22:24.850
occurred over the last , uh , several

22:24.850 --> 22:27.459
weeks in , uh , Operation Epic Fury . I

22:27.459 --> 22:29.459
think what this has demonstrated is

22:29.459 --> 22:31.626
really the value of the , uh , MQ9 . I

22:31.626 --> 22:33.737
mean we certainly don't look at it as

22:33.737 --> 22:36.260
an attritable asset , uh , but the

22:36.260 --> 22:38.859
impact that it has had , uh , in spite

22:38.859 --> 22:40.748
of that attrition has really been

22:40.748 --> 22:43.599
remarkable . The good news is that even

22:43.599 --> 22:45.790
with that attrition , uh we're down to

22:45.790 --> 22:48.619
about 135 planes right now . We are

22:48.619 --> 22:51.219
still able to fulfill our contract of

22:51.219 --> 22:54.339
56 combat lines worldwide , so that's

22:54.339 --> 22:56.630
kind of the marker for us . With that

22:56.630 --> 22:59.069
said , we are concerned about how

22:59.069 --> 23:01.291
they've attributed and we're looking at

23:01.291 --> 23:03.589
options to buy back as many of the

23:03.589 --> 23:06.420
MQ9A's as we , uh , possibly can right

23:06.420 --> 23:08.630
now . So there's a , a bit of a , of a

23:08.630 --> 23:11.550
short term , uh , effort to , uh , buy

23:11.550 --> 23:13.900
back things immediately , uh , in this

23:13.900 --> 23:16.089
fiscal year , uh , and we're working

23:16.089 --> 23:18.910
with , uh , OSW to , uh , uh , figure

23:18.910 --> 23:21.469
out options to , to do that . But that

23:21.469 --> 23:23.750
quickly transitions into kind of a , a

23:23.750 --> 23:27.479
medium term . Uh , uh , pro

23:27.479 --> 23:29.760
problem of what do we want this to

23:29.760 --> 23:33.479
evolve into if not an MQ9 , then what

23:33.479 --> 23:35.701
are some other possibilities , uh , out

23:35.701 --> 23:38.035
there and that will obviously lead , uh ,

23:38.035 --> 23:40.035
to a longer term , but I think that

23:40.035 --> 23:42.257
might be best , uh , answered by , uh ,

23:42.257 --> 23:43.257
the , uh , 857 .

23:48.430 --> 23:50.430
So as we go forward , uh , we think

23:50.430 --> 23:52.319
there's an opportunity because we

23:52.319 --> 23:54.208
stabilize the numbers and we have

23:54.208 --> 23:55.819
enough to meet the immediate

23:55.819 --> 23:58.349
requirement . Um , We were very

23:58.349 --> 24:01.050
successful with the CCA program in

24:01.219 --> 24:03.386
communicating to industry the types of

24:03.386 --> 24:05.910
attributes that we wanted . Canvassing

24:05.910 --> 24:08.077
for a number of companies , ultimately

24:08.077 --> 24:10.660
down selecting , and now 2 of those are

24:10.660 --> 24:12.493
delivering prototypes that we're

24:12.493 --> 24:14.327
testing . Uh , we'd like to do a

24:14.327 --> 24:16.382
similar thing with the platform that

24:16.382 --> 24:19.119
will follow MQ9 . I signed out the

24:19.119 --> 24:21.349
requirements document for this just

24:21.349 --> 24:23.293
yesterday , and we believe what is

24:23.293 --> 24:26.079
possible is to take advantage of modern

24:26.079 --> 24:28.190
manufacturing technologies so that we

24:28.190 --> 24:30.023
could buy something that is more

24:30.023 --> 24:32.079
flexible , lends itself more to open

24:32.079 --> 24:34.079
architecture , is more easily to

24:34.079 --> 24:36.280
produce in mass numbers , and then

24:36.280 --> 24:38.336
ultimately , you could use in a more

24:38.336 --> 24:40.979
attritable way . The MQ-9 is serving us

24:40.979 --> 24:43.140
well over in the conflict that's

24:43.140 --> 24:46.099
ongoing in the Middle East , but the

24:46.099 --> 24:48.619
MQ-9 , depending on what sensors are on

24:48.619 --> 24:50.979
that , can cost up to $50 million a

24:50.979 --> 24:52.939
copy . And so by getting something

24:52.939 --> 24:55.161
that's more modular , we think we could

24:55.161 --> 24:57.383
take advantage of an opportunity if you

24:57.383 --> 24:57.369
knew that aircraft was going to operate

24:57.369 --> 24:59.536
in a high threat environment of taking

24:59.536 --> 25:01.758
off those packages that drive that cost

25:01.758 --> 25:05.010
to a much lower price point . Did you

25:05.010 --> 25:07.099
want to add anything general ? Sir ,

25:07.170 --> 25:09.226
the only thing I'd add is , um , our

25:09.226 --> 25:12.160
ISR and soft team put out a request for

25:12.160 --> 25:14.327
information , uh , about a month ago .

25:14.430 --> 25:16.652
And the results for that literally just

25:16.652 --> 25:18.874
came back this week and they , they had

25:18.874 --> 25:21.119
over 50 responses to that . So to

25:21.130 --> 25:23.352
General Nmai's point , there , there is

25:23.352 --> 25:25.463
a , I , I think a burgeoning interest

25:25.463 --> 25:27.630
across the right , the broader defense

25:27.630 --> 25:29.686
industrial base on what comes next ,

25:29.686 --> 25:31.852
and I think we have enough interest to

25:31.852 --> 25:33.574
really uh get some , I think ,

25:33.574 --> 25:35.630
interesting proposals back . It does

25:35.630 --> 25:37.686
seem like a ripe environment for the

25:37.686 --> 25:37.560
next innovator . Thank , thank you ,

25:37.910 --> 25:40.239
Senator Kelly . Thank you , Mr .

25:40.250 --> 25:43.050
Chairman . Um , I think with Midnight

25:43.050 --> 25:45.380
Hammer and the operations in Iran ,

25:45.609 --> 25:49.349
we've seen the capability of the F-35 .

25:50.180 --> 25:53.989
Um Ability to get over a target and get

25:53.989 --> 25:57.780
weapons on target and . Um , About

25:57.780 --> 25:59.947
a couple of years ago , I flew an F-16

25:59.947 --> 26:03.530
against an F-35 and Uh , once we hit

26:03.530 --> 26:05.859
the merge , it wasn't that impressive .

26:06.170 --> 26:09.170
Before that , the thing was invisible .

26:09.329 --> 26:11.051
I mean , it was , it was quite

26:11.051 --> 26:13.949
something to , to not see . Um ,

26:14.369 --> 26:16.930
and you can see the value in having

26:16.930 --> 26:19.420
this platform . Uh , my understanding

26:19.420 --> 26:23.130
is TR 3 , there's , um , over

26:23.130 --> 26:26.050
100 airplanes that have tech refresh 3

26:26.050 --> 26:28.390
in them , but the software is still .

26:29.020 --> 26:31.187
Uh , some of the software is delayed .

26:31.187 --> 26:33.420
Would you consider , I'm not sure even

26:33.660 --> 26:36.050
who the question should be directed to .

26:36.300 --> 26:38.540
Would you consider those airplanes ,

26:38.979 --> 26:41.201
you know , ready to fly and have any of

26:41.201 --> 26:43.449
them seen combat , the ones that have

26:43.449 --> 26:44.589
tech refresh 3 ?

26:48.589 --> 26:51.000
So I've flown the F-35 with the TR-3

26:51.000 --> 26:53.430
software . It's , uh , Senator , not

26:53.430 --> 26:56.150
currently combat coded because of the

26:56.150 --> 26:58.372
developmental issues that we're working

26:58.372 --> 27:00.317
through . So the aircraft that are

27:00.317 --> 27:02.428
currently deployed are not using that

27:02.428 --> 27:01.750
software . They're using an older

27:01.750 --> 27:05.150
software that is , uh , or , uh , fully

27:05.150 --> 27:07.790
combat capable . Uh , I'm confident

27:07.790 --> 27:11.719
that we will get there on TR 3 , I

27:11.719 --> 27:14.839
have a long experience with the F-35

27:14.839 --> 27:16.950
program , and I think I share some of

27:16.950 --> 27:20.520
the members' frustration , but we

27:20.520 --> 27:22.631
continue to make the program better .

27:22.631 --> 27:25.000
It will be the backbone of the US Air

27:25.000 --> 27:27.222
Force and many other Air Forces fighter

27:27.222 --> 27:29.389
fleet for many years to come . We look

27:29.389 --> 27:31.556
carefully toward the future and assess

27:31.556 --> 27:33.722
the trends and where they're going and

27:33.722 --> 27:35.889
make sure that the upgrades like Block

27:35.889 --> 27:38.000
4 are going to bring the capabilities

27:38.000 --> 27:37.550
that will keep it relevant in the

27:37.550 --> 27:40.849
future . And any timeline for when

27:40.849 --> 27:43.930
we're going to see . A block 4 airplane .

27:45.479 --> 27:47.590
I don't have the timeline specifics .

27:47.800 --> 27:50.609
It is still several years away . Um ,

27:50.979 --> 27:53.201
Block 4 is , I think you're aware , has

27:53.201 --> 27:55.312
slipped considerably over the years .

27:55.312 --> 27:57.535
One of the challenges that we have from

27:57.535 --> 27:59.535
a modernization perspective , and I

27:59.535 --> 28:01.646
would say the F-35 is one of the more

28:01.646 --> 28:03.979
difficult programs in this regard , the ,

28:03.979 --> 28:06.312
the bigger and more complex the upgrade ,

28:06.312 --> 28:08.535
the more difficult it is to update it .

28:08.535 --> 28:10.757
And so some of the initial requirements

28:10.757 --> 28:12.979
documents for Block 4 were written many

28:12.979 --> 28:15.146
years ago , and the threat has shifted

28:15.146 --> 28:17.257
since then . And so one of the things

28:17.257 --> 28:19.479
that the Air Force grapples with is how

28:19.479 --> 28:21.368
do we balance the tension between

28:21.368 --> 28:23.590
freezing the requirements , which helps

28:23.590 --> 28:25.423
us to move more quickly in field

28:25.423 --> 28:27.646
capability , but at the same time being

28:27.646 --> 28:29.701
responsive as the threat environment

28:29.701 --> 28:31.868
changes . And that'll be a big part of

28:31.868 --> 28:31.609
my responsibilities in the A57 .

28:31.800 --> 28:33.522
Senator . Yeah , I think for a

28:33.522 --> 28:35.522
complicated weapons system like the

28:35.522 --> 28:37.689
F-35 , it's hard to have an innovation

28:37.689 --> 28:39.967
cycle . I mean , first of all , for us ,

28:39.967 --> 28:42.133
our innovation cycle is really long to

28:42.133 --> 28:44.356
begin with . It's not like , you know ,

28:44.356 --> 28:46.467
what the Ukrainians can do in a drone

28:46.467 --> 28:48.689
factory every two weeks . They can make

28:48.689 --> 28:50.967
changes and get them incorporated . Uh ,

28:50.967 --> 28:53.310
I get that . Back to TR 3 though , when

28:54.130 --> 28:57.500
do you think we will have the Combat

28:57.500 --> 29:01.420
encoded software available because we

29:01.420 --> 29:04.020
have 100 , I think about 150 airplanes

29:04.020 --> 29:06.180
that . I mean , I guess we could use

29:06.180 --> 29:08.420
them for training , but we can't send

29:08.420 --> 29:11.209
them to do their jobs . Senator , I'd

29:11.209 --> 29:13.153
like to take that question for the

29:13.153 --> 29:14.931
record . I'm working now on the

29:14.931 --> 29:17.042
requirement side , and I've been away

29:17.042 --> 29:19.265
from that for , uh , about a year now .

29:19.265 --> 29:21.376
My sense is it's months , not years ,

29:21.376 --> 29:23.598
but let me take that and , uh , get you

29:23.598 --> 29:25.598
the right answer . And then a quick

29:25.598 --> 29:29.079
update on APG 85 and also the ,

29:29.520 --> 29:31.890
the engine core upgrade . When would we

29:31.890 --> 29:35.030
expect to see those ? So I'd like to

29:35.030 --> 29:37.099
turn it over to uh my acquisition

29:37.099 --> 29:39.709
counterpart to address the specifics ,

29:39.829 --> 29:41.885
but as far as I know , both of those

29:41.885 --> 29:44.051
are on track . We have had some growth

29:44.051 --> 29:46.218
issues with the APG 85 , but I believe

29:46.218 --> 29:48.440
that we will get there , Senator . OK .

29:48.579 --> 29:52.199
General . Yes , sir . So I

29:52.199 --> 29:55.199
think all of those , uh , TR 3 related

29:55.199 --> 29:57.421
capabilities that are , that are needed

29:57.421 --> 29:59.532
to get to fully combat coded aircraft

29:59.532 --> 30:01.866
are , uh , actively being worked by the ,

30:01.866 --> 30:03.760
by the JPO and , uh , Lieutenant

30:03.760 --> 30:06.630
General Masciello . Uh , there are , uh ,

30:06.640 --> 30:09.260
a number of additional capabilities on ,

30:09.400 --> 30:12.040
on that upgrade that . Uh , we can't

30:12.040 --> 30:14.151
really go into here , but , uh , to a

30:14.151 --> 30:16.373
General Niema's point , I'm , I'm happy

30:16.373 --> 30:18.484
to also take the specifics on each of

30:18.484 --> 30:20.484
those capabilities that need to get

30:20.484 --> 30:22.489
upgraded into TR 3 for , for that

30:22.489 --> 30:24.510
combat coded aircraft to be , to be

30:24.510 --> 30:26.621
viable and get back to you with those

30:26.621 --> 30:28.732
details . And then how , how about on

30:28.732 --> 30:30.732
the engine core upgrade ? Yes sir ,

30:30.732 --> 30:32.899
same , same thing . I can , I can take

30:32.899 --> 30:35.177
that as well and get you those details .

30:35.177 --> 30:37.343
Any , any concern of yours , uh , unit

30:37.343 --> 30:39.454
cost , I mean , the unit cost on F-35

30:39.454 --> 30:41.510
has come down significantly over the

30:41.510 --> 30:43.621
years , but that's , you know , often

30:43.989 --> 30:46.211
largely because we've been selling them

30:46.211 --> 30:48.489
to a lot of our international partners .

30:48.780 --> 30:50.724
Have you had to make any calculate

30:50.724 --> 30:54.540
calculations on unit cost for us

30:54.540 --> 30:58.420
now as we add planes to the fleet based

30:58.420 --> 31:01.900
on some of our allies starting

31:01.900 --> 31:04.810
to . Seems to me they're going to

31:04.810 --> 31:06.921
possibly walk away from the program .

31:09.380 --> 31:11.547
Uh , if not entirely , but there , you

31:11.547 --> 31:13.547
know , there's been some discussion

31:13.547 --> 31:15.930
about smaller buys by some of our

31:15.930 --> 31:18.041
allies . Is that gonna have an effect

31:18.041 --> 31:20.250
on us ? So that's something that we've

31:20.250 --> 31:22.250
kind of , as we go into each , uh ,

31:22.650 --> 31:25.250
program cycle developing , uh , 27 and

31:25.250 --> 31:27.472
as we're starting to develop 28 , we've

31:27.472 --> 31:29.583
worked very closely with the JPO . To

31:29.583 --> 31:31.639
kind of get a sense for where all of

31:31.639 --> 31:34.439
the uh procurements are to that very uh

31:34.459 --> 31:36.515
uh reason to understand kind of what

31:36.515 --> 31:38.839
the per unit price is going to be , we

31:38.839 --> 31:40.950
don't see a lot of uh variation right

31:40.950 --> 31:44.800
now in the uh FMS sales , uh , so

31:44.800 --> 31:47.199
we're not anticipating a wild swings as

31:47.199 --> 31:49.810
you said . Uh , rightfully , it's the ,

31:49.880 --> 31:51.769
the prices are coming down , uh ,

31:51.769 --> 31:53.880
gradually , but , but it is something

31:53.880 --> 31:55.991
that we keep in the cross check as we

31:55.991 --> 31:57.991
look at the next year's , uh , uh ,

31:57.991 --> 32:00.102
programming . All right , thank you .

32:00.102 --> 32:02.269
Thank you , Senator Budd . Thank you ,

32:02.269 --> 32:04.491
Chairman . Thank the ranking member and

32:04.491 --> 32:06.436
thank you all for , for being here

32:06.436 --> 32:08.324
today . Uh , General Nimai , uh ,

32:08.324 --> 32:10.436
congrats on your nomination to be the

32:10.436 --> 32:12.436
Air Force first Chief Modernization

32:12.436 --> 32:14.380
Officer . That's , uh , incredibly

32:14.380 --> 32:16.547
important . I wanna hear your thoughts

32:16.547 --> 32:18.213
on low cost alternatives . To

32:18.213 --> 32:20.436
complement the CCA or the collaborative

32:20.436 --> 32:22.547
Combat aircraft increment one that we

32:22.547 --> 32:24.824
might be able to pursue . For instance ,

32:24.824 --> 32:27.010
I was at DARPA earlier this week and I

32:27.010 --> 32:29.232
learned about their long shot program .

32:29.232 --> 32:31.121
So what are your thoughts on this

32:31.121 --> 32:33.343
low-cost CCA uh alternative like this ?

32:34.420 --> 32:36.253
Just to be clear , you're asking

32:36.253 --> 32:38.253
specifically about long shot or CCA

32:38.253 --> 32:40.476
more broadly , Senator , uh , both , if

32:40.476 --> 32:42.642
you would talk , do you , where are we

32:42.642 --> 32:44.753
on that , and what do you think about

32:44.753 --> 32:43.900
the long shot ? Is that a good

32:43.900 --> 32:46.780
alternative for the CCA more broadly ?

32:46.890 --> 32:48.946
Uh , I have a lot of experience with

32:48.946 --> 32:51.112
that program . My prior job was out at

32:51.112 --> 32:53.223
Ellis Air Force Base . We're standing

32:53.223 --> 32:55.334
up the experimental operations unit ,

32:55.334 --> 32:57.334
and I'm very enthusiastic about the

32:57.334 --> 32:59.334
opportunities of the future for CCA

32:59.334 --> 33:01.446
type aircraft . It's one of the , the

33:01.446 --> 33:04.069
primary , um . Platforms that we will

33:04.069 --> 33:06.859
use to explore practical use for AI .

33:07.420 --> 33:09.253
So initially , we'll employ that

33:09.253 --> 33:11.420
platform sort of under the supervision

33:11.420 --> 33:13.364
of an F-22 pilot tethered , but we

33:13.364 --> 33:15.309
intentionally put a Beyond line of

33:15.309 --> 33:17.476
sight radio into that platform so that

33:17.476 --> 33:19.587
we can explore other opportunities in

33:19.587 --> 33:21.531
the future . I was fortunate to be

33:21.531 --> 33:23.753
involved in some of the early test work

33:23.753 --> 33:25.920
in the F-22 , and I think that in some

33:25.920 --> 33:25.479
ways this will be very similar .

33:25.910 --> 33:28.077
There's no doubt in my mind that we'll

33:28.077 --> 33:30.077
find some disappointments and nasty

33:30.077 --> 33:32.077
surprises , but we're also going to

33:32.077 --> 33:31.910
discover some opportunities ,

33:32.030 --> 33:34.252
opportunities as we fly the aircraft in

33:34.252 --> 33:36.030
an operationally representative

33:36.030 --> 33:38.141
environment in the Ellis Ranges . And

33:38.141 --> 33:40.252
so I look forward to that in the next

33:40.252 --> 33:42.530
few years . Um , I would also add that ,

33:42.530 --> 33:44.530
uh , there are adversaries that are

33:44.530 --> 33:46.474
working very aggressively to field

33:46.474 --> 33:48.670
their own autonomous CCA-like

33:48.670 --> 33:52.290
capabilities and I don't think we can

33:52.290 --> 33:54.401
predict when this will happen , but I

33:54.401 --> 33:56.568
think most of us , based on what we've

33:56.568 --> 33:58.568
seen from artificial intelligence ,

33:58.568 --> 34:00.568
would assess that there will come a

34:00.568 --> 34:02.679
point where a robot fighter is better

34:02.679 --> 34:04.846
than a man fighter , and I say this as

34:04.846 --> 34:06.846
a person who identified and grew up

34:06.846 --> 34:06.640
professionally in the fighter pilot

34:06.640 --> 34:08.919
community . The question is when will

34:08.919 --> 34:11.141
that happen , and I think it would be a

34:11.141 --> 34:13.030
tragic shame if the United States

34:13.030 --> 34:15.086
didn't have a better answer if we're

34:15.086 --> 34:17.252
facing robot fighters that were better

34:17.252 --> 34:19.197
than our man fighters . So for all

34:19.197 --> 34:19.120
these reasons , I'm very bullish on

34:19.120 --> 34:21.231
CCAs , but it's going to take decades

34:21.231 --> 34:23.398
to develop . With regard to Longshot ,

34:23.398 --> 34:25.564
I am familiar with that program . Uh ,

34:25.564 --> 34:27.620
DARPA works on DARPA hard problems ,

34:27.620 --> 34:29.842
and that's certainly one of them . It's

34:29.842 --> 34:32.009
one of the programs that we're looking

34:32.009 --> 34:33.787
at closely for the potential to

34:33.787 --> 34:36.020
transfer . The details are classified .

34:36.290 --> 34:38.623
There are some things that I would , uh ,

34:38.729 --> 34:40.896
some modest changes that I would do to

34:40.896 --> 34:43.118
that program that I think would make it

34:43.118 --> 34:45.229
more operationally useful to us , and

34:45.229 --> 34:47.396
I'd be happy to discuss them , uh , in

34:47.396 --> 34:46.850
a classified setting with you , sir . I

34:46.850 --> 34:48.850
look forward to that conversation .

34:48.850 --> 34:51.072
Thank you , General Tabor . Good to see

34:51.072 --> 34:50.879
you again , uh . So I saw in the Air

34:50.879 --> 34:53.101
Force budget that you'd like to procure

34:53.101 --> 34:56.760
36 F-15 EX's in fiscal year 2030 .

34:57.260 --> 34:59.482
Uh , but right now I don't think Boeing

34:59.482 --> 35:01.538
can do that with just one production

35:01.538 --> 35:03.760
line . So I've also heard about doing a

35:03.760 --> 35:05.816
digital twin of the back half of the

35:05.816 --> 35:07.593
aircraft . I think the front is

35:07.593 --> 35:09.704
digitized on the EX , but what's your

35:09.704 --> 35:11.760
assessment of how we could build out

35:11.760 --> 35:13.871
more production and , and what can we

35:13.871 --> 35:15.704
do in , in the Senate here or in

35:15.704 --> 35:17.649
Congress in general to help ? Uh ,

35:17.649 --> 35:19.760
Senator Budd , we are very interested

35:19.760 --> 35:21.704
in , uh , increasing , uh , F-15EX

35:21.704 --> 35:23.927
production starting at 24 and 27 and as

35:23.927 --> 35:26.620
you said , ramping up , uh , to 36 , uh ,

35:26.629 --> 35:28.909
by the end of the fight . Uh , right

35:28.909 --> 35:31.000
now there is a , uh , multi-year

35:31.000 --> 35:33.469
procurement negotiation going on , uh ,

35:33.600 --> 35:36.550
in conjunction with , uh , OSW and , uh ,

35:36.560 --> 35:39.360
Boeing , uh , to , to look at options

35:39.360 --> 35:41.419
to , uh , accelerate that as , uh ,

35:41.439 --> 35:43.629
quickly as possible and . Uh , we're

35:43.629 --> 35:45.629
getting , uh , feedback that , uh ,

35:45.629 --> 35:47.629
that's going , uh , fairly well . I

35:47.629 --> 35:49.351
don't have any , uh , specific

35:49.351 --> 35:51.685
timelines , uh , right now , but we are ,

35:51.685 --> 35:53.907
uh , hopeful that we can get to that 24

35:53.907 --> 35:56.510
per year as rapidly as possible . Is

35:56.510 --> 35:59.060
digital twin helpful ? Uh , certainly ,

35:59.179 --> 36:01.512
uh , digital twin would be very helpful ,

36:01.512 --> 36:03.623
uh , as you may know , the , uh , the

36:03.623 --> 36:06.600
back half of the , uh , F-15 , uh , is ,

36:06.610 --> 36:09.020
uh , built just like they did , uh , 30

36:09.020 --> 36:11.187
years ago , uh , which is a little bit

36:11.187 --> 36:13.353
amazing , but , uh , that's where they

36:13.353 --> 36:15.576
are . Uh , if you could , uh , at least

36:15.576 --> 36:17.853
get that digitized , uh , even as , uh ,

36:17.853 --> 36:20.020
the plans , it would accelerate , uh ,

36:20.020 --> 36:19.899
things , uh , rapidly , of course

36:19.899 --> 36:21.899
there's costs associated with doing

36:21.899 --> 36:24.121
that , and I think that's some of the ,

36:24.121 --> 36:26.121
uh , negotiation that's going on in

36:26.121 --> 36:28.066
that multi-year procurement , uh ,

36:28.066 --> 36:30.399
thank you for that . Uh , General Tabor ,

36:30.399 --> 36:29.810
you're looking at , uh , the budget

36:29.810 --> 36:31.754
documents , the projected cost per

36:31.754 --> 36:34.929
aircraft for the KC-46 seems like it

36:34.939 --> 36:37.330
steps up a good bit from 27 to 28 ,

36:37.449 --> 36:41.360
jumping 60% . From 235 million a

36:41.360 --> 36:44.540
unit to 334 per tail ,

36:45.000 --> 36:47.719
um , for the same capability being

36:47.719 --> 36:49.840
delivered in 2027 . So what's the

36:49.840 --> 36:52.000
drivers of this step up in cost ?

36:53.070 --> 36:55.014
Senator , I think that the biggest

36:55.014 --> 36:57.292
thing to recognize is that the current ,

36:57.292 --> 36:59.292
uh , uh , production of uh aircraft

36:59.292 --> 37:01.181
that we're buying are perhaps the

37:01.181 --> 37:03.403
cheapest , uh , uh , tankers that we're

37:03.403 --> 37:05.626
ever going to buy . Uh , in fact , uh ,

37:05.626 --> 37:07.737
I think Boeing took those at a loss ,

37:07.989 --> 37:10.211
uh , and they would tell you that , you

37:10.211 --> 37:12.211
know . That same thing that if they

37:12.211 --> 37:14.322
were selling them at what they needed

37:14.322 --> 37:16.433
to , it would be significantly higher

37:16.433 --> 37:18.489
so you're getting a little bit of an

37:18.489 --> 37:20.656
artificial bump , albeit a large one ,

37:20.656 --> 37:22.989
regardless , uh , and so that's part of ,

37:22.989 --> 37:26.550
uh , this , uh , uh , extended , uh ,

37:26.560 --> 37:28.727
production that we're looking at right

37:28.727 --> 37:31.139
now , uh , at a 15 a year that's a

37:31.139 --> 37:33.530
negotiation that's ongoing , uh , that ,

37:33.540 --> 37:35.540
uh , we'll , we'll try to drive the

37:35.540 --> 37:37.596
cost to as competitive as possible .

37:37.596 --> 37:39.818
Great , thank you so much . Thank you ,

37:39.818 --> 37:40.984
Senator Blumenthal .

37:48.239 --> 37:51.239
Thank you . Uh , thank you for being

37:51.239 --> 37:53.520
here . Thanks for your service . Um ,

37:53.639 --> 37:55.909
I'd like to ask , uh , a general

37:55.909 --> 37:58.449
question . Um , I'm sure .

38:00.010 --> 38:02.669
All of you have studied carefully .

38:04.550 --> 38:07.830
What's happened in Ukraine . Ukrainians

38:07.830 --> 38:11.139
have F-16s . Uh , but

38:11.760 --> 38:14.290
Um , I'm interested more broadly in the

38:14.290 --> 38:17.929
lessons that our Air Force can

38:17.929 --> 38:21.790
learn . Uh , from the

38:21.790 --> 38:24.409
fight in Ukraine , the use of unmanned .

38:25.790 --> 38:27.659
Um , Ariel .

38:29.120 --> 38:32.929
Um , platforms as well as the .

38:33.659 --> 38:35.760
Use of F-sixteens , can you talk a

38:35.760 --> 38:37.704
little bit about what , what we've

38:37.704 --> 38:38.704
learned ?

38:42.139 --> 38:45.179
Senator , we're following very closely

38:45.179 --> 38:47.401
because there aren't many opportunities

38:47.401 --> 38:50.540
to observe a real world laboratory like

38:50.540 --> 38:52.818
we see in Ukraine , as tragic as it is .

38:53.870 --> 38:56.469
There are a number of trends that are

38:56.469 --> 38:58.636
interesting to me as I view it through

38:58.636 --> 39:01.169
a lens of modernization . One is that

39:01.510 --> 39:03.621
the need to be able to produce things

39:03.621 --> 39:06.830
in large volumes is becoming more and

39:06.830 --> 39:09.989
more important . I heard today that the

39:09.989 --> 39:11.878
Ukrainians are building a million

39:11.878 --> 39:14.709
drones a month . So , you know , we

39:14.709 --> 39:17.070
think in large quantities in terms of

39:17.070 --> 39:19.181
dozens , and they're obviously way at

39:19.181 --> 39:21.292
the other end of the spectrum . There

39:21.292 --> 39:23.260
are a number of items that we're

39:23.699 --> 39:25.866
programs we're implementing across the

39:25.866 --> 39:29.379
Air Force to embrace that trend . For

39:29.379 --> 39:31.601
example , one of the programs that I've

39:31.601 --> 39:33.659
advocated for are low-cost cruise

39:33.659 --> 39:35.770
missiles or family of affordable mass

39:35.770 --> 39:37.992
munitions . So these are munitions that

39:37.992 --> 39:41.540
are built from the ground up , designed

39:41.540 --> 39:44.040
to be mass produced , designed to be .

39:44.449 --> 39:46.449
Able to swap out a seeker or a

39:46.449 --> 39:48.393
different component designed to be

39:48.393 --> 39:52.290
manufactured at a relatively low

39:52.290 --> 39:54.346
technology levels so that allies and

39:54.346 --> 39:56.179
partners could help or you could

39:56.179 --> 39:58.346
crowdsource how the weapons were built

39:58.346 --> 40:00.234
and you could rapidly ramp up the

40:00.234 --> 40:02.401
production rates so that if we were to

40:02.401 --> 40:05.010
transition in a future scenario from

40:05.010 --> 40:07.409
peacetime to conflict , you could go

40:07.409 --> 40:10.169
from maybe buying 1000 a year of these

40:10.169 --> 40:13.239
to 1000 a week . And so those are some

40:13.239 --> 40:15.406
of the things that we're looking at in

40:15.406 --> 40:17.628
Ukraine and trying to make sure that we

40:17.628 --> 40:19.572
are better prepared for tomorrow ,

40:19.572 --> 40:22.989
Senator . But um what about

40:23.739 --> 40:27.719
At the other end , um . The F-47 , is

40:27.719 --> 40:30.750
that something we should be Investing

40:30.750 --> 40:33.290
in , um , you know , the .

40:35.239 --> 40:38.639
The F-35 , the , these very ,

40:38.800 --> 40:42.149
very . Extraordinarily high priced ,

40:42.290 --> 40:45.649
sophisticated , complicated . Plans

40:45.649 --> 40:48.409
that Could be blown apart on the ground .

40:49.209 --> 40:52.560
Just like the Ukrainians blew apart . A

40:52.560 --> 40:54.879
bunch of aircraft . They may not have

40:54.879 --> 40:56.840
been highly sophisticated , costly

40:56.840 --> 40:59.229
aircraft , but Um

41:01.000 --> 41:04.000
Should we be investing in in the high

41:04.000 --> 41:07.600
end ? It's my belief that it

41:07.600 --> 41:09.780
takes a balance of both the high end

41:09.780 --> 41:13.469
and the low end . So I would argue that

41:13.469 --> 41:16.149
in the aftermath of the Cold War , we

41:16.149 --> 41:18.205
started to gravitate toward the high

41:18.205 --> 41:20.427
end . Part of that is the top line came

41:20.427 --> 41:22.593
down , we had to focus our resources ,

41:22.593 --> 41:24.760
but also for many years we didn't have

41:24.760 --> 41:28.669
a peer adversary . And so there was no

41:28.669 --> 41:30.836
real threat that we would have someone

41:30.836 --> 41:33.002
attack and destroy our aircraft on the

41:33.002 --> 41:35.225
ground . That's clearly not the case as

41:35.225 --> 41:37.502
you've outlined . And so in the future ,

41:37.620 --> 41:39.500
we see a role for both the very

41:39.500 --> 41:41.500
high-end type of equipment like the

41:41.500 --> 41:43.850
F-47 , the B-21 , long range kill

41:43.850 --> 41:46.129
chains . Those things will be vital to

41:46.129 --> 41:48.240
competing with a peer adversary , but

41:48.240 --> 41:50.351
you can never have enough capacity in

41:50.351 --> 41:52.407
the high end because of the costs as

41:52.407 --> 41:54.573
you've outlined . And so you need some

41:54.573 --> 41:56.462
lower cost equipment that you can

41:56.462 --> 41:58.500
afford to buy in larger numbers at

41:58.500 --> 42:01.580
lower costs and at higher production

42:01.580 --> 42:03.370
rates . They work together .

42:06.330 --> 42:08.699
I , I guess I would wonder whether our

42:08.699 --> 42:12.510
adversaries facing the same . Cost

42:12.510 --> 42:15.580
curves that we do . We're going to

42:16.760 --> 42:19.320
Seek to make their low-end weaponry

42:19.320 --> 42:22.489
more sophisticated using AI , more

42:22.489 --> 42:26.379
agile , more nimble . Um

42:28.120 --> 42:30.679
And whether we're really , whether they

42:30.679 --> 42:33.560
will simply say . OK , we'll let the

42:33.560 --> 42:36.669
United States . Have that

42:36.850 --> 42:39.090
sphere , but they're not going to be

42:39.090 --> 42:41.729
able to produce enough of the F-35s or

42:41.729 --> 42:45.290
F-47s to counter our literally

42:45.290 --> 42:48.649
thousands or millions of swarms of

42:48.649 --> 42:51.530
drones that will attack those planes

42:51.530 --> 42:53.530
because they have to land somewhere

42:53.530 --> 42:56.310
sometime . Or , you know , I don't know

42:56.310 --> 43:00.070
enough about . The technology , but um ,

43:00.489 --> 43:02.929
there must be points of vulnerability .

43:03.870 --> 43:07.419
Where our adversaries could say . We're

43:07.419 --> 43:09.639
just gonna focus on stuff we can use

43:10.300 --> 43:12.467
all over the world in great quantity .

43:13.139 --> 43:17.070
Um , and . The United States can use

43:17.070 --> 43:19.550
its its F-thirty-fives .

43:20.560 --> 43:23.050
Um , for the next generation .

43:24.120 --> 43:27.889
5th generation . Um , I , I don't , I

43:27.889 --> 43:29.889
don't know the answer , and I'm not

43:29.889 --> 43:32.250
advocating a point of view , um , but

43:32.250 --> 43:34.306
certainly we've learned lessons from

43:34.306 --> 43:37.169
Ukraine , and I now , I know everybody

43:37.169 --> 43:39.370
now is talking about producing more of

43:39.370 --> 43:43.320
the low cost . Stuff , um , that's

43:43.320 --> 43:45.649
the Vogue now . Um ,

43:47.229 --> 43:49.451
But there probably is a smart way to do

43:49.451 --> 43:52.040
it and a less smart way to do it and .

43:52.979 --> 43:54.979
Um , that's what I'm asking about .

43:56.070 --> 43:58.014
Senator , you've given me a lot to

43:58.014 --> 44:00.429
unpack , uh , in that , a couple of

44:00.429 --> 44:03.229
thoughts . Uh , I absolutely agree with

44:03.229 --> 44:06.149
you that United States historical

44:06.149 --> 44:08.260
strength has not been mass production

44:08.260 --> 44:10.909
of relatively inexpensive objects . I

44:10.909 --> 44:12.965
think there are some trends that are

44:12.965 --> 44:15.187
changing that . We're following closely

44:15.187 --> 44:17.520
with things like additive manufacturing ,

44:17.520 --> 44:19.631
robotics , other things that we think

44:19.631 --> 44:19.580
could drive down that cost . We're

44:19.580 --> 44:21.580
incorporating that into some of the

44:21.580 --> 44:23.909
programs like the CCA production . Uh ,

44:23.959 --> 44:26.070
the plant that Anderil's built , some

44:26.070 --> 44:28.320
other examples of that so that we can

44:28.320 --> 44:30.320
start to get closer to that through

44:30.320 --> 44:33.120
those modern technologies , um , all

44:33.120 --> 44:35.287
the things that you described in terms

44:35.287 --> 44:37.398
of the threats that could face us are

44:37.398 --> 44:39.509
the things that keep me up at night ,

44:39.509 --> 44:41.620
and it's my job to consider all those

44:41.620 --> 44:43.787
and then look across the portfolio and

44:43.787 --> 44:45.953
make a recommendation in terms of what

44:45.953 --> 44:48.231
are the wisest investments in order to .

44:48.350 --> 44:50.517
Maximize the probability that we'll be

44:50.517 --> 44:52.128
able to fulfill the nation's

44:52.469 --> 44:54.580
requirements as the United States Air

44:54.580 --> 44:56.747
Force going forward and minimize their

44:56.747 --> 45:00.189
vulnerabilities . Thank you . Thank you

45:00.189 --> 45:02.189
for that , Senator and General , we

45:02.189 --> 45:04.411
want you to sleep well every night just

45:04.411 --> 45:06.356
so you know , so tell us how to be

45:06.356 --> 45:08.411
helpful . Um , I'm gonna , I'm gonna

45:08.411 --> 45:10.629
stay in the unmanned systems world for

45:10.629 --> 45:12.573
a while since that's what I'm most

45:12.573 --> 45:14.685
familiar with and in fact , fact with

45:14.685 --> 45:16.851
the ISR and ask you a little bit about

45:16.851 --> 45:18.851
the RQ4 . If , if it were up to the

45:18.851 --> 45:21.189
previous , um , Air Force leadership in

45:21.189 --> 45:23.411
the previous administration , we'd have

45:23.411 --> 45:25.659
none . Right now , um , I know that the

45:25.659 --> 45:27.899
RQ4s are continue to play a pretty

45:27.899 --> 45:31.459
critical role , um , in , in Operation

45:31.459 --> 45:34.280
Epic Fury as well as others , um ,

45:34.949 --> 45:37.116
what's , what's the plan going forward

45:37.116 --> 45:40.189
for , for that platform .

45:40.560 --> 45:43.129
Um , as we talked about avoiding the

45:43.129 --> 45:46.290
gaps , um , you know , what are there 9

45:46.290 --> 45:48.770
of them that were flying now ? I don't

45:48.770 --> 45:50.992
know how many more there are that could

45:50.992 --> 45:53.270
be flyable , but , uh , if anybody has ,

45:53.270 --> 45:55.492
uh , uh , information that we can share

45:55.492 --> 45:57.603
here that it , it'd be interesting to

45:57.603 --> 45:59.659
me . Senator Kramer , I'll , I'll at

45:59.659 --> 46:01.992
least start on that . Uh , you're right ,

46:01.992 --> 46:04.103
uh , there , there are just a handful

46:04.103 --> 46:06.214
of those , uh , available to us right

46:06.214 --> 46:08.437
now . Uh , it is our eventual plan to ,

46:08.437 --> 46:10.899
uh , uh , retire those . We've worked ,

46:10.929 --> 46:13.151
uh , really hard over the course of the

46:13.151 --> 46:15.679
last , uh , about 8 months , uh ,

46:16.159 --> 46:18.159
alongside our A2 and in conjunction

46:18.159 --> 46:21.389
with the , uh , A57 to articulate an

46:21.389 --> 46:24.840
ISR roadmap . That , uh , effectively

46:24.840 --> 46:27.260
shows where we can make some trade-offs ,

46:27.280 --> 46:30.719
uh , from some of the older , uh , less

46:30.719 --> 46:33.080
productive , uh , systems into some of

46:33.080 --> 46:35.550
the , uh , newer systems that we're

46:35.550 --> 46:37.606
looking at as well as , uh , some of

46:37.606 --> 46:39.790
the space-based capabilities . Uh ,

46:39.800 --> 46:41.911
we'd love to , uh , share that , uh ,

46:41.911 --> 46:44.280
uh , decision support template with you

46:44.280 --> 46:46.629
and kind of articulate how we see that ,

46:46.639 --> 46:48.861
uh , going forward , but it's a , it is

46:48.861 --> 46:51.219
a classified brief . Let me ask them

46:51.219 --> 46:53.419
because you referenced space in the

46:53.419 --> 46:56.080
experience that we're going through now .

46:57.300 --> 46:59.467
How has space performed ? I mean , I ,

46:59.467 --> 47:01.633
I'll tell you my sense of it is it's ,

47:01.750 --> 47:04.000
it's exceeded expectations in some

47:04.000 --> 47:06.167
cases , maybe not met them in others .

47:06.167 --> 47:08.278
Do you have , do you all have a sense

47:08.278 --> 47:10.500
of how well space has performed in , in

47:10.500 --> 47:12.760
the current fight ? We do , and it does

47:12.760 --> 47:15.093
rapidly , uh , become , uh , classified .

47:15.120 --> 47:17.231
I'll tell you that , uh , it's , it's

47:17.231 --> 47:19.342
been impressive . I think that , uh ,

47:19.342 --> 47:21.820
there are a lot more successes . That

47:21.820 --> 47:25.010
are , uh , due to the ubiquitousness of ,

47:25.020 --> 47:28.060
uh , space-based , uh , uh , monitoring

47:28.060 --> 47:30.639
than uh people can appreciate , um ,

47:30.659 --> 47:32.860
and , uh , again , I think that would

47:32.860 --> 47:35.193
be a productive uh conversation to have ,

47:35.193 --> 47:39.149
uh , in the appropriate setting . Then

47:39.149 --> 47:41.205
I'm gonna pick up a little bit where

47:41.205 --> 47:43.510
Senator Blumenthal um was going or

47:43.510 --> 47:46.030
where he left off and talk uh get your

47:46.030 --> 47:49.270
input on counter UAS uh particularly I

47:49.270 --> 47:51.437
mean we're talking a lot about Ukraine

47:51.437 --> 47:53.492
and we're , we're all fascinated and

47:53.492 --> 47:55.714
lessons have been learned obviously but

47:55.714 --> 47:57.881
maybe , um , General Tabor , you could

47:57.881 --> 47:59.992
just talk to me a little bit about um

48:00.270 --> 48:02.103
how we're doing is the Air Force

48:02.103 --> 48:04.479
protecting its bases while we . While

48:04.479 --> 48:06.646
we wait for JA 401 to come up with the

48:06.646 --> 48:08.590
magic formula or whatever it is is

48:08.590 --> 48:10.812
happening , and I'm grateful for all of

48:10.812 --> 48:13.035
that . I mean , speaking of things I've

48:13.035 --> 48:12.810
been impressed with , it's the speed

48:12.810 --> 48:14.921
with which , um , the Air Force and ,

48:14.921 --> 48:18.439
and frankly the joint forces has caught

48:18.439 --> 48:20.661
up , but , uh , maybe you could share a

48:20.661 --> 48:22.661
little bit your perspective . Yes ,

48:22.661 --> 48:24.772
Senator Kerman , it's a , it's a very

48:24.772 --> 48:26.995
important issue to us and another topic

48:26.995 --> 48:29.161
that we talk about , the three of us ,

48:29.161 --> 48:29.129
uh , quite frequently , and I know that ,

48:29.159 --> 48:31.492
uh , my , my partners will want to , uh ,

48:31.492 --> 48:34.110
chime in here . Uh , so we have had a ,

48:34.149 --> 48:36.629
uh , uh , counter sue ad system that

48:36.629 --> 48:38.907
has been kind of the program of record .

48:39.120 --> 48:41.287
Uh , frankly , it's a difficult , uh ,

48:41.287 --> 48:44.090
space . I mean it is not as effective

48:44.090 --> 48:46.257
as , uh , perhaps , uh , we would want

48:46.257 --> 48:48.709
it to be , uh , but we are bullish on

48:48.709 --> 48:50.876
what's , uh , going on with , uh , the

48:50.876 --> 48:52.653
dog and JAA 401 and some of the

48:52.653 --> 48:54.876
capabilities that are being developed .

48:54.876 --> 48:57.389
So we're actively looking at how do we

48:57.389 --> 49:00.330
incorporate some of those . Uh , types

49:00.330 --> 49:02.386
of , uh , capabilities , but I think

49:02.386 --> 49:04.719
more importantly looking at kind of the ,

49:04.719 --> 49:06.886
uh , infrastructure that we need to do

49:06.886 --> 49:09.689
to really establish a , uh , a career

49:09.689 --> 49:12.030
field that owns this , uh , problem ,

49:12.330 --> 49:14.552
uh , and with your indulgence I'll pass

49:14.552 --> 49:16.774
it over to , uh , General Niemey , uh ,

49:16.774 --> 49:18.941
he has kind of some of the thoughts on

49:18.941 --> 49:22.429
that if that's right . 401 is helping

49:22.429 --> 49:24.989
immensely with the um material

49:24.989 --> 49:27.199
solutions , the kit . Uh , there's an

49:27.199 --> 49:29.469
awful lot of work that all the services

49:29.469 --> 49:31.580
to include the Air Force , need to do

49:31.580 --> 49:33.747
to figure out how to use that . So who

49:33.747 --> 49:35.858
will operate it , who would they work

49:35.858 --> 49:38.191
for ? How do we train those individuals ,

49:38.191 --> 49:40.413
um , to give you a sense of some of the

49:40.413 --> 49:42.636
discussions we're having . Typically in

49:42.636 --> 49:44.689
an Air Force wing , you'll have an

49:44.689 --> 49:46.633
operations group and you'll have a

49:46.633 --> 49:48.689
mission support group . The security

49:48.689 --> 49:50.633
forces live in the mission support

49:50.633 --> 49:52.633
group , and all the operators , the

49:52.633 --> 49:54.856
pilots , whatnot live in the operations

49:54.856 --> 49:54.850
group . You can see how defending

49:54.850 --> 49:56.850
against a small UAS kind of looks a

49:56.850 --> 49:59.169
little bit like both of those . It's a

49:59.169 --> 50:01.058
little bit like a law enforcement

50:01.058 --> 50:03.113
officer , but it's a little bit like

50:03.113 --> 50:05.225
someone that maybe understands radars

50:05.225 --> 50:07.447
and missiles and things like that . And

50:07.447 --> 50:07.050
so those are the types of things we're

50:07.050 --> 50:09.590
going through now . I think that the

50:09.590 --> 50:11.812
Air Force has certainly recognized that

50:11.812 --> 50:13.923
this is a problem as much as we would

50:13.923 --> 50:16.090
like , otherwise it's not going away .

50:16.090 --> 50:18.257
We need to grapple with it and we need

50:18.257 --> 50:20.312
to bolster our capability to protect

50:20.312 --> 50:22.146
our assets against those kind of

50:22.146 --> 50:24.312
threats , Senator . Well , well , Noel

50:24.312 --> 50:26.312
said thank you for that . Um , uh ,

50:26.350 --> 50:28.628
Senator Kelly , do you wanna follow up ?

50:28.628 --> 50:30.628
Please do . We're filibustering for

50:30.628 --> 50:32.628
Senator Peters just in case he does

50:32.628 --> 50:34.794
come back . Is he coming back ? Well ,

50:34.794 --> 50:34.260
he told me he was . He was worried

50:34.260 --> 50:36.482
about his space in line , but I'm not ,

50:36.482 --> 50:38.316
I'm not . I don't think that's a

50:38.316 --> 50:39.939
problem , OK . Um ,

50:41.790 --> 50:45.629
The HH 60 whiskeys , so

50:45.629 --> 50:49.189
we added 10 of these . In

50:49.350 --> 50:52.229
2024 . 2 in

50:52.229 --> 50:56.229
2025 , 2 in 2026 ,

50:56.310 --> 50:59.050
I think . And then two years ago though ,

50:59.149 --> 51:02.739
26 . Um , 60

51:02.739 --> 51:05.659
whiskeys were moved to the Air Force

51:05.659 --> 51:08.399
District in Washington DC .

51:09.139 --> 51:11.679
So that seems to be .

51:13.000 --> 51:15.729
At least 25% or more short from the

51:15.729 --> 51:19.010
original plan for this

51:19.010 --> 51:22.010
aircraft supporting combat , search and

51:22.010 --> 51:25.280
rescue . So , are we

51:25.580 --> 51:28.550
taking additional risk here in the CSA

51:28.550 --> 51:30.760
mission , or is there something else

51:32.100 --> 51:35.939
we're doing to backfill some other

51:35.939 --> 51:39.580
kind of capability ? And if there isn't ,

51:39.659 --> 51:41.659
like , what's the , what's the plan

51:41.659 --> 51:44.060
going forward here ? Obviously , with

51:44.060 --> 51:47.860
the um downed F-15 .

51:48.100 --> 51:50.739
In Iran we , you know , see that this

51:50.739 --> 51:53.639
is a capability that needs to be robust .

51:55.399 --> 51:57.621
Senator Kelly , uh , we've been working

51:57.621 --> 51:59.732
this , uh , for about the last year ,

51:59.732 --> 52:01.899
as you said , in 26 , there was a move

52:01.899 --> 52:04.399
to shift those , uh , 60s to , uh , the

52:04.399 --> 52:06.879
AFDW uh mission . Uh , we kind of hit a

52:06.879 --> 52:09.101
pause on that so we could go back and ,

52:09.101 --> 52:11.520
and really analyze the , the pros and

52:11.520 --> 52:14.070
cons , and , uh , we're on the verge of ,

52:14.080 --> 52:17.800
uh , kind of uh rolling that out . I'll

52:17.800 --> 52:20.022
tell you the , the bottom line is we do

52:20.022 --> 52:22.244
think that it's the right thing to do .

52:22.244 --> 52:25.090
76 is the program of record for the

52:25.090 --> 52:27.860
CSAR force , uh , and we will maintain

52:27.860 --> 52:30.290
those . The additional 60s that are

52:30.290 --> 52:32.409
coming out are backup aircraft

52:32.409 --> 52:34.550
inventory that we will turn into

52:34.550 --> 52:37.290
primary mission aircraft , uh , here to

52:37.290 --> 52:39.870
replace the uh UH1s that have been , uh ,

52:39.879 --> 52:42.489
conducting the AFDW mission for a

52:42.489 --> 52:45.070
number of years . Uh , there was a , a

52:45.070 --> 52:47.237
little bit of a , uh , rush because of

52:47.237 --> 52:49.629
the declining , uh , availability rates

52:49.629 --> 52:52.469
of the UH1s with fleet management and

52:52.469 --> 52:55.709
the bringing on MH-139s within the

52:55.709 --> 52:58.110
global strike community . Uh , we're

52:58.110 --> 53:00.443
able to , uh , harvest some of the , uh ,

53:00.443 --> 53:02.669
other UH1s to maintain those for a

53:02.669 --> 53:04.669
sufficient period of time until the

53:04.669 --> 53:07.570
860s are available , but . The bottom

53:07.570 --> 53:09.989
line is that we will have the CISAR

53:09.989 --> 53:12.489
mission uh covered with their 76

53:12.489 --> 53:14.780
required as well as those uh here in

53:14.780 --> 53:18.560
AFDW and in AFDW , what is the ,

53:18.810 --> 53:20.643
what is the mission ? Is it just

53:20.643 --> 53:23.169
executive transport or is there , does

53:23.169 --> 53:25.760
it have some other roles ? There's , uh ,

53:25.770 --> 53:27.881
some other elements to it that , uh ,

53:27.881 --> 53:30.048
we'd have to have in a separate , uh ,

53:30.048 --> 53:33.350
forum , OK . All right , I'll yield the

53:33.350 --> 53:35.750
remainder here . All right , Senator

53:35.750 --> 53:38.389
Peters , we've been stalling for you .

53:38.989 --> 53:41.100
Not really . OK , good . I hope not .

53:41.100 --> 53:43.100
Thank you , Mr . Chairman , ranking

53:43.100 --> 53:45.211
member . Thank you , gentlemen , uh ,

53:45.211 --> 53:47.211
for , for being here today . Uh , I

53:47.211 --> 53:47.090
want to pick up . I know that , uh ,

53:47.100 --> 53:49.211
Senator Budd asked a question related

53:49.211 --> 53:51.378
to F-15s , uh , uh , prior to me being

53:51.378 --> 53:53.322
here , but I wanna kind of go in a

53:53.322 --> 53:55.378
little different , uh , direction as

53:55.378 --> 53:57.600
all three of you know , the Air Force ,

53:57.600 --> 53:59.711
uh , more than doubled their Plan B ,

53:59.711 --> 54:02.370
your Plan B of F-15 EX fighter jets

54:02.370 --> 54:05.985
from 129 to 20 . 167 , a big

54:05.985 --> 54:07.985
increase . Uh , I think I would say

54:07.985 --> 54:10.524
that's probably an acknowledgement of

54:10.524 --> 54:13.594
the F-15EX's increased payload , its

54:13.594 --> 54:15.705
range , its survivability . There's a

54:15.705 --> 54:17.872
lot of wonderful things happening with

54:17.872 --> 54:20.038
that aircraft , uh , and you know that

54:20.038 --> 54:22.261
these jets are going to be critical for

54:22.261 --> 54:24.261
us to deal as a deterrence and deal

54:24.261 --> 54:26.261
with potential adversaries , either

54:26.261 --> 54:28.316
Russian or Chinese . Uh , I bring up

54:28.316 --> 54:30.715
F-155 EXs because , uh , Salfordge Air

54:30.715 --> 54:33.000
National Guard Base , uh , which . I

54:33.000 --> 54:35.111
have the privilege of representing in

54:35.111 --> 54:37.278
Michigan . Uh , we'll be receiving the

54:37.278 --> 54:39.278
first of 21 , uh , F-15 EXs in , in

54:39.278 --> 54:41.860
2028 , which we're very excited about .

54:42.199 --> 54:44.199
But my question for you is , what ,

54:44.199 --> 54:46.879
what led to this change , uh , in the

54:46.879 --> 54:49.080
Air Force's acquisition approach to

54:49.080 --> 54:51.080
have that kind of increase , uh .

54:52.030 --> 54:53.974
Anyone who would like to jump in ,

54:54.159 --> 54:56.326
Senator Peters , I'll , uh , start and

54:56.326 --> 54:58.639
my colleagues can jump in . Uh , for

54:58.639 --> 55:00.806
you're absolutely right , for a number

55:00.806 --> 55:03.028
of years we kind of , uh , artificially

55:03.028 --> 55:06.179
held ourselves to , uh , 104 F-15EXs

55:06.520 --> 55:09.189
really with , uh , the sole purpose of

55:09.189 --> 55:12.419
replacing the F-15Cs that existed

55:12.919 --> 55:15.086
within , uh , Air National Guard bases

55:15.086 --> 55:17.363
and so that's how that number was , uh ,

55:17.363 --> 55:20.000
derived . Uh , as we , uh , encountered ,

55:20.010 --> 55:22.570
uh , some , uh , slowdowns in

55:22.570 --> 55:25.290
deliveries of , uh , F-35s , uh , due

55:25.290 --> 55:27.610
to the previously discussed , uh , TR3

55:27.610 --> 55:30.360
and , uh , block 4 upgrade issues , uh ,

55:30.449 --> 55:32.616
it became , uh , apparent to us that ,

55:32.616 --> 55:35.679
uh , we needed another , uh , uh , uh ,

55:35.689 --> 55:38.050
fighter capacity . This in conjunction

55:38.050 --> 55:40.106
with a lot of the work that has been

55:40.106 --> 55:42.330
done in force design . Uh , and the ,

55:42.379 --> 55:44.601
the capabilities of the , uh , F-15 and

55:44.601 --> 55:46.768
what that provides to us in the pacing

55:46.768 --> 55:49.260
challenge made it , uh , a very obvious

55:49.260 --> 55:51.810
choice . So it's an existing line , uh ,

55:51.820 --> 55:54.739
to give us a more robust capability and

55:54.739 --> 55:56.850
the ability to , uh , start replacing

55:56.850 --> 55:59.620
some of the older F-15E's that are

55:59.620 --> 56:01.939
currently in our fleet . So that's all

56:01.939 --> 56:04.106
kind of uh came together to uh lead to

56:04.106 --> 56:06.272
this decision and , uh , we're excited

56:06.272 --> 56:08.495
about , uh , kind of getting on uh step

56:08.495 --> 56:10.550
with the production of , uh , EX's .

56:10.649 --> 56:12.760
And , uh , and really modernizing the

56:12.760 --> 56:15.800
F-15 fleet . Well , to pick up on your

56:15.800 --> 56:17.856
point about , uh , uh , getting them

56:17.856 --> 56:20.022
built , uh , that seems to be an issue

56:20.022 --> 56:22.189
right now . I know that our , uh , the

56:22.189 --> 56:24.411
date that we thought we would see those

56:24.411 --> 56:26.578
F-15DXs continues to get pushed back ,

56:26.578 --> 56:28.911
uh , because of issues with Boeing . Uh ,

56:28.911 --> 56:31.133
the recent strike obviously pushed back

56:31.133 --> 56:33.356
some of that production , but with this

56:33.356 --> 56:35.467
kind of increase , uh , we don't want

56:35.467 --> 56:37.522
to just have more aircraft , we want

56:37.522 --> 56:39.411
them now , uh , because the , the

56:39.411 --> 56:41.522
threat is today and could come sooner

56:41.522 --> 56:41.449
rather than later . So my question for

56:41.449 --> 56:43.560
you is how , how are you working with

56:43.560 --> 56:45.616
Boeing to basically surge capacity ?

56:45.649 --> 56:47.816
They've , they've got to build these .

56:47.816 --> 56:50.038
Things a whole lot quicker than they're

56:50.038 --> 56:52.149
doing right now . Any assurances that

56:52.149 --> 56:54.260
that they can actually deliver ? So I

56:54.260 --> 56:56.593
know that , uh , uh , General Cropsey's ,

56:56.593 --> 56:55.870
uh , eager to , uh , talk about this ,

56:56.530 --> 56:58.752
but I , I'll tell you that there is a ,

56:58.752 --> 57:00.752
uh , negotiation going on . The Air

57:00.752 --> 57:03.030
Force is a part of with OSW and Boeing ,

57:03.149 --> 57:05.260
uh , to accelerate that as rapidly as

57:05.260 --> 57:08.969
possible . General Sort of that point ,

57:09.129 --> 57:11.399
there's , uh , right , an ongoing

57:11.399 --> 57:13.343
conversation with Boeing right now

57:13.343 --> 57:15.677
about just getting to 2 a month , right ?

57:15.677 --> 57:17.399
They're not currently at their

57:17.399 --> 57:19.621
contracted number for production rate .

57:19.621 --> 57:21.732
Uh , I went out a couple of weeks ago

57:21.732 --> 57:24.010
with the Secretary of the Air Force to ,

57:24.010 --> 57:26.066
uh , have a conversation with Boeing

57:26.066 --> 57:25.689
around what they're doing in order to

57:25.689 --> 57:27.856
get that , that rate , that production

57:27.856 --> 57:29.967
rate where it needs to go . Uh , they

57:29.967 --> 57:32.340
gave us actually a , uh , I thought a

57:32.340 --> 57:34.479
well thought out plan with regards to

57:34.739 --> 57:36.760
how to get the existing line to 2 a

57:36.760 --> 57:38.816
month , which is where they , they ,

57:38.816 --> 57:40.704
they need to be coming out of the

57:40.704 --> 57:42.816
strike . And then they also gave us ,

57:42.816 --> 57:44.927
uh , additional plans around how they

57:44.927 --> 57:47.093
could get to 3 and potentially up to 4

57:47.093 --> 57:49.260
over time , uh , depending on what the

57:49.260 --> 57:51.149
demand signal looked like and the

57:51.149 --> 57:52.982
timelines associated with , uh ,

57:52.982 --> 57:55.038
putting the right infrastructure and

57:55.038 --> 57:57.149
capital investments in place there in

57:57.149 --> 57:59.427
Saint Louis to be able to do that . Uh ,

57:59.427 --> 58:01.580
so , from an acquisition standpoint ,

58:01.860 --> 58:04.082
uh , we got some work to do ahead of us

58:04.082 --> 58:06.082
to be able to get to the ramp rates

58:06.082 --> 58:08.304
that we're talking about . But , uh , I

58:08.304 --> 58:10.471
think Boeing is actively in good faith

58:10.471 --> 58:12.693
working with us to figure out what that

58:12.693 --> 58:12.350
would look like . But 2 a month ,

58:12.399 --> 58:14.177
that's what the 2 , they have 2

58:14.177 --> 58:16.399
production lines now , and 2 a month is

58:16.399 --> 58:16.199
what you're saying that they're trying

58:16.199 --> 58:18.840
to achieve . They , they have a single

58:18.840 --> 58:21.199
production line right now that needs to

58:21.199 --> 58:24.439
be at 2 per month for capacity in the

58:24.439 --> 58:26.439
system . And then they presented us

58:26.439 --> 58:28.800
with plans that would potentially stand

58:28.800 --> 58:32.350
up an additional 1 or 2 , depending on

58:32.350 --> 58:34.517
the , I mean they have decisions about

58:34.517 --> 58:36.572
the , the flow through the , through

58:36.572 --> 58:38.739
the actual production line and Whether

58:38.739 --> 58:40.461
or not they put the additional

58:40.461 --> 58:42.683
resources into the equipment that would

58:42.683 --> 58:44.794
be required for additional lines . So

58:44.794 --> 58:44.429
what's , what's their pushback ? They

58:44.429 --> 58:46.651
have , they obviously have the demand ,

58:46.651 --> 58:48.651
and you think if you do 2 a month ,

58:48.651 --> 58:48.629
even if you hit that's 24 aircraft ,

58:49.040 --> 58:51.800
you hit 267 . That's well over a decade

58:51.800 --> 58:54.280
before that comes through . Uh , they

58:54.280 --> 58:56.169
have the demand . Why aren't they

58:56.169 --> 58:58.336
putting up the investment necessary to

58:58.336 --> 59:00.391
meet what is a significant order ? I

59:00.391 --> 59:02.613
think that's what we're in negotiations

59:02.613 --> 59:04.836
with him on right now , sir , and , and

59:04.836 --> 59:04.780
that is trending in a very positive

59:04.780 --> 59:06.979
direction . So I'm confident at this

59:06.979 --> 59:08.899
point that , uh , as those

59:08.899 --> 59:11.121
conversations continue , we'll get to a

59:11.121 --> 59:13.288
good point . Great , thank you for the

59:13.288 --> 59:12.939
answer . Thank you . Thank you , Mr .

59:13.040 --> 59:16.969
Chairman . Senator Kelly

59:16.969 --> 59:19.136
has at least one more question , and I

59:19.136 --> 59:21.358
probably have one more , um , before we

59:21.358 --> 59:23.580
wrap up . Yeah , just got a question on

59:23.580 --> 59:26.520
the wedge tail . So the plan

59:26.520 --> 59:30.020
is , um , we are

59:30.020 --> 59:33.739
retiring AWAC E3s at the rate of 16

59:33.739 --> 59:37.060
this year , 5 next year , 5 and 28 , 6

59:37.060 --> 59:40.219
and 29 , but they're , correct me if

59:40.219 --> 59:42.850
I'm wrong , but there's no wedge tails

59:42.850 --> 59:46.360
in the 2027 request . Is that right ?

59:46.429 --> 59:49.300
So what's the plan for the , for the

59:49.300 --> 59:51.810
mission ? I think we also lost a plane ,

59:52.310 --> 59:56.310
um , recently in CEO . This

59:56.310 --> 59:59.020
was my question too . OK . This is the ,

59:59.030 --> 01:00:01.540
uh , the E7 was not originally in the ,

01:00:01.550 --> 01:00:04.110
uh , E7 , uh , submission , uh , I'm

01:00:04.110 --> 01:00:06.221
sorry , in the 27 , uh , submission .

01:00:06.510 --> 01:00:08.732
Uh , however , uh , we've recently been

01:00:08.732 --> 01:00:11.870
working with , uh , OSW , uh , to get

01:00:11.870 --> 01:00:14.080
that , uh , budget amendment , uh ,

01:00:14.149 --> 01:00:17.139
over to , uh , OMB to include , uh ,

01:00:17.149 --> 01:00:20.850
funding for 27 in support of , uh ,

01:00:20.899 --> 01:00:24.129
uh , contract for 5 additional aircraft .

01:00:25.729 --> 01:00:28.649
5 aircraft contracted in 2027 . How

01:00:28.649 --> 01:00:31.580
about ? Just to start production of

01:00:31.580 --> 01:00:34.780
them . So the , uh , the current plan ,

01:00:35.199 --> 01:00:38.719
uh , in , in keeping with the , the 26

01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:42.260
language is , uh , we , we are

01:00:42.639 --> 01:00:44.840
moving the current two prototypes that

01:00:44.840 --> 01:00:47.750
we have right now and adding , uh ,

01:00:47.760 --> 01:00:49.982
into that , uh , it's called a military

01:00:49.982 --> 01:00:51.649
tier acquisition program , an

01:00:51.649 --> 01:00:53.850
additional 5 . This , this right

01:00:53.850 --> 01:00:56.209
starting this year and by the end of

01:00:56.209 --> 01:00:58.889
the summer , we will have a baseline on

01:00:58.889 --> 01:01:01.000
the budget for that . And once I have

01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:03.169
the baseline cost estimate for that ,

01:01:03.250 --> 01:01:05.417
we will convert that entire package of

01:01:05.417 --> 01:01:08.570
7 into a major capability acquisition

01:01:08.570 --> 01:01:11.050
and formally enter into an EMD program .

01:01:12.459 --> 01:01:14.949
OK . Do you feel like there's gonna be

01:01:14.949 --> 01:01:17.110
a gap in capability ?

01:01:22.120 --> 01:01:24.610
Senator , I was privileged to lead the

01:01:24.610 --> 01:01:27.010
3rd Wing , which has 2 AWAC aircraft

01:01:27.010 --> 01:01:30.550
assigned to it up in Alaska . And

01:01:31.120 --> 01:01:33.600
time and again , I watched airmen toil

01:01:33.600 --> 01:01:35.600
away at 3 o'clock in the morning to

01:01:35.600 --> 01:01:38.149
make that aircraft ready . And you can

01:01:38.149 --> 01:01:40.371
imagine how disappointed they were , no

01:01:40.371 --> 01:01:42.538
matter how many checks they did and no

01:01:42.538 --> 01:01:44.760
matter how hard they worked . There was

01:01:44.760 --> 01:01:46.927
a very good chance that aircraft would

01:01:46.927 --> 01:01:48.927
break when it started . The E3s are

01:01:48.927 --> 01:01:52.010
very old , and I am most concerned

01:01:52.020 --> 01:01:54.020
about the reliability , and there's

01:01:54.020 --> 01:01:56.242
nothing we can do to make that platform

01:01:56.242 --> 01:02:00.000
reliable . So I personally am

01:02:00.260 --> 01:02:02.427
less concerned maybe than others about

01:02:02.427 --> 01:02:05.830
the divestment of the E3 because The

01:02:05.830 --> 01:02:07.997
capability is not what it might seem .

01:02:07.997 --> 01:02:10.510
What was the FMC rate for it ?

01:02:11.590 --> 01:02:13.757
I would need to get back to you on the

01:02:13.757 --> 01:02:16.389
specific numbers , but it was low . But

01:02:16.389 --> 01:02:18.000
more importantly , it wasn't

01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:20.222
predictable . There were so many things

01:02:20.222 --> 01:02:22.111
on that aircraft that could break

01:02:22.111 --> 01:02:24.111
because so many of the parts are 50

01:02:24.111 --> 01:02:26.500
years old or older that no matter how

01:02:26.500 --> 01:02:28.389
hard the airmen worked on it , it

01:02:28.389 --> 01:02:31.080
wasn't reliable for us . And when it

01:02:31.080 --> 01:02:34.080
was , was working . How

01:02:34.699 --> 01:02:36.810
capable was it ? Because , you know ,

01:02:36.810 --> 01:02:38.532
in the Navy , there was a huge

01:02:38.532 --> 01:02:40.643
difference between like what the E-2C

01:02:40.643 --> 01:02:44.260
could do and the E-2D . You know , E2C

01:02:44.260 --> 01:02:47.860
was rather I don't want to insult

01:02:47.860 --> 01:02:50.780
anybody here , but I think it's rather

01:02:50.780 --> 01:02:53.520
limited in its ability to do its job .

01:02:53.820 --> 01:02:56.560
And when we got the new radar on the ,

01:02:56.659 --> 01:02:59.020
on the E2 with the , the D model , it

01:02:59.020 --> 01:03:01.242
was like that's what we always needed .

01:03:01.459 --> 01:03:03.626
I think it's a similar dynamic between

01:03:03.626 --> 01:03:05.681
the E3 and E7 . I have flown on both

01:03:05.681 --> 01:03:07.792
those aircraft and seen how the radar

01:03:07.792 --> 01:03:10.219
performs , and it is night and day , um ,

01:03:10.300 --> 01:03:12.780
and I would also say , uh , stepping

01:03:12.780 --> 01:03:15.199
back to the chairman's question earlier ,

01:03:15.580 --> 01:03:17.989
um . The capabilities that are

01:03:17.989 --> 01:03:20.590
happening in space are far exceeding

01:03:20.590 --> 01:03:23.229
our expectations , and I would welcome

01:03:23.229 --> 01:03:26.139
the opportunity in a different forum to

01:03:26.790 --> 01:03:28.957
tell you exactly why I feel that way ,

01:03:28.957 --> 01:03:31.629
but I think that's important for me to

01:03:31.629 --> 01:03:35.620
say . Yeah , I understand . Well ,

01:03:35.709 --> 01:03:37.790
excellent thank you , um , all , all

01:03:37.790 --> 01:03:39.901
three of you gentlemen for being here

01:03:39.901 --> 01:03:42.123
for your service to our country and for

01:03:42.123 --> 01:03:41.590
your service to us , you're good

01:03:41.590 --> 01:03:44.169
partners and , and we appreciate the ,

01:03:44.229 --> 01:03:46.550
the , uh , the conversation a great

01:03:46.550 --> 01:03:49.629
deal that the , uh , committee stands

01:03:49.629 --> 01:03:50.189
adjourned .